RE: What's your bus? Summary #2

["O'Shea, David J" <david.j.oshea@intel.com>]

Kevin,

Being an engineer and not one of the folks that really
"runs" the piping, I have to speculate.  But I think
my speculation is pretty well informed.

The PCI-SIG is a multi-company chartered group.  (Believe
me, Intel DOES NOT "control" it.  [I often wish we did.  :-) ])
As such, no one company pays for it.  However, the charter
members pay a higher cost to maintain their charter member voting rights.
Even with that, those fees are not enough to pay for the operations
of the SIG, which from what I can tell these days consists of:
Web site, PCI-SIG compatibility plug fests, PCI-SIG meetings 
(renting hotel conference rooms), and PCI-SIG participation at
various marketing shows, and having the CDROM with the specs pressed.

That is ALL funded out three sources.   Charter member subscription
fees, regular (adopting member) subscription fees, and the fees 
charged by the SIG for the specifications.  Those are the only means
by which the SIG can really raise money to pay for itself.

I'm not trying to sell the virtues of the SIG.  (Take it or leave it
as you wish, on your own fundamentals).  My original comments pretty
much place my view right out there.  $3K is cheap for a company, and 
expensive for an individual.  For the spec, $495 is expensive as well
for an individual, but there is no way to distinguish a true pauper
individual from a tight budget company unwilling to put out $3K.  

When the PCI bus specifaction was "new", back in the '93 timeframe,
the SIG originally REQUIRED membership in order to get the specification.
You simply could not purchase the spec by itself.  As all the folks
that could possibly be charged the $2000 membership fee (in '93)slowly
dropped off (because all the companies that could pay and were bringing
out a product had paid, and did bring out a product), the SIG started to
offer the specification for sale individually.  But it charged substantially
more than the $40 or last year, or the $100 of this year.   I don't remember
exactly, but I think it was $300 dollars for the paper specification by itself
when that first became available.  (Unless you were a SIG member, than you 
could order additional paper specifications for $40).   Eventually, they dropped
the price on the PCI specification.  They also did it because of LOTS 
of requests from university students.   My guess would be the $40 is not
covering true costs of SIG operation again, so the price went up...

My speculation is that in about 2 years, the price of the PCI-Express spec will
drop to $200.  And then the next $150.  And then the next $100.  {Honest,
I really don't know, but it seems to me that history will likely repeat).

The $3k membership is actually what the SIG wants folks to do from all outward
apperances.  [Again, I have nothing to do with SIG operations, Intel has 70K
employees, and the SIG is a seperate entity anyway....]  I speculate that the
non-member spec price is kept high initially in order to force companies to become 
members, rather than just pay the $500 dollar spec fee.  [There are many a 
company that don't care about the voting rights of membership, of workgroups, or
technical support (dumb).  So they believe they are paying $2500 for a searchable
electronic copy and an ID number..... (which I would say is mostly true).  
However, I still believe the membership is a good deal for companies.

Frankly, even a poorly funded startup can shell out $3K to get its ID, tech support,
design models, contacts with other companies, plug fest invitations, EARLY access to
information before non-members (ECO's, etc are pretty much only available to members
in fact).   The price to the SIG of forcing the companies to pay up is that they
have to keep the individual pricing in line with the 3K fee.  

There is unfortunately also a policing type of issue.  Although the SIG owns the
ID numbers, and one can't implement the SIG specification without being a member
(which requires RAND on patents), the easiest way to force that is at the front door.

I'm actually surprised the SIG continues to offer the spec "singly" to non-members
at all because of the legal issues.  [I'm glad, but surprised.]   Frankly, I see
the paper-only spec as a way to "test the waters" before plunking down the membership
fee.  [In the old days (don't know about today), if you joined within a year of buying
a paper spec, they would credit the paper spec fee to you membership price...]

Dave's recap of what you really get for your money:

$3K MEMBERSHIP really gives:
1. All Specifications, in paper.  (PCI 2.3, PCI-X 1.0, PCI-X 2.0, PCI-Express 1.0...)
2. Specifications, on CDROM.
3. Voting rights.
4. Right to be in SIG workgroups.  (Very valuable).
5. Free technical support from very well informed tech supp folks.
6. VENDOR ID.  (Needed for silicon AND board producers).
	- Si needs for Vendor ID.  Board guys need for Subsystem ID.
       Board folks can thank Microsoft for making subsysID required in Windows,
       and thus requiring all the board companies to also become members to get
       a vendor ID which can be placed in the Subsystem ID field.

$475 Paper SPEC gives:  (NOTE:  Don't get the P2P Bridge spec unless shell out $100 more).
1. PCI-Express Paper specification. (They don't even give electronic).
-OR-
1. PCI-X 2.0 spec ($475).
PCI-X 2.0 Specification Hardcopy $475 
-OR-
$100 Paper PCI (regular) spec:
1. PCI 2.3 spec
-OR-
1. PCI 3.0 spec
-OR-
1. PCI Bridge spec.

$1500 (1/2 of the way to membership).  BUT GIVES ELECTRONIC SPEC...
1.  CD1 with PCI Express + PCI-X 2.0 $1500 
- DON'T GET:  Tech supp, Vendor ID, Workgroups, ECO's, minor specs...


Only real answer here is that digital electronics is a business.  The developments
that went into these specifications were huge.  But when the companies come together
to create a local environment for common good where adopting companies also stand
to make substantial money on their products produced from this technology, one can
only assume that they pay a small fee to help defer the day to day maintenance of
the "common good" existance and promotion of the specifications and the environment
which emerges from them.  That seems to have worked amazingly well for PCI over
the years.  

My $.02 would be to find a reason your current employer really needs to be
in the SIG, and get them to join... on their $3K.  

-David O'Shea
Lowly engineer...






-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Brace [mailto:kevinbraceusenet@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 6:52 PM
To: pci-sig@znyx.com
Subject: RE: What's your bus? Summary #2


David,

Do you know why PCI Express specification has to cost $475 for non-PCISIG 
members?
A year ago, PCI 2.2 specification cost only $40 even for
non-PCISIG members, but was recently raised to $100.
Although I didn't like that price hike, I still could live with that price, 
but now PCI Express specification costs $475 (I was hoping it will be $100 
like the conventional PCI specification.), and that really discourages 
individuals like myself from obtaining the specification.


Kevin Brace (If someone wants to respond to what I wrote, I prefer if you 
will do so within the mailing list.)



>From: "O'Shea, David J" <david.j.oshea@intel.com>
>To: "Amit Shah" <amits@agere.com>, "Alan Deikman" <Alan.Deikman@znyx.com>,  
>       <pci-sig@znyx.com>
>Subject: RE: What's your bus?  Summary #2
>Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:11:54 -0800
>
>
>
>If one is a member of the PCI-SIG, then its a good time to hit the
>website and download the PCI-Express specification.   If you are not
>a SIG member, good time to join, the membership information is at the
>site, and the bottom line is $3000 (3K) to make your company a member.
>Reasonable for most every company, and steep for individuals.
>
>-David O'Shea
>Intel Corp.
>david.j.oshea@intel.com
>
>
>

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